28 October 2025

Principals Sylvia Groves, Salisbury High School and Sally Schwartzkopff, Renmark Primary School, join us to talk about implementing Positive Behaviour for Learning (PBL) at their schools. Hear how adopting the PBL framework has led to cultural transformation, improved wellbeing and strengthened relationships amongst their staff and students. From overcoming challenges to celebrating school-wide achievements, this episode highlights practical strategies, the importance of community and staff buy-in, and advice for schools looking to enhance or explore their own PBL practices.

Show Notes

• Positive Behaviour for Learning on EDi.
• Get in touch with the PBL team.
• Practice guidance for learners with additional needs.

Transcript

Dale Atkinson: Hello and welcome to Teach, a podcast about teaching and learning in South Australia. My name is Dale Atkinson from South Australia's Department for Education and today we're talking about Positive Behaviour for Learning or PBL as it's known and we're joined by Sylvia Groves, principal at Salisbury High School, and Sally Schwarzkopf, principal at Renmark Primary School. Welcome to you both.

Sally Schwartzkopff: Thank you

Sylvia Groves: Thanks.

Dale Atkinson: Now, first of all, let's find out a bit about your site. Sylvia – tell us a little bit about Salisbury High School.

Sylvia Groves: Okay. Well, Salisbury High School is in a low socioeconomic area, has a high degree of complexity and is currently a category 2 school. We have a community that's very reliant on the school but does have a strong belief that our school will support their students.

But the trial opportunity that we were able to get involved in provided us with guidance and direction and that opportunity to review and refresh, which we very much needed. Our initial intensions in introducing PBL was to create a change in behaviours to improve learning outcomes for our students. We were at a stage initially where we felt that we couldn't really teach students, and we needed a real cultural shift in what we were doing.

We also recognize that many of our students didn't know how to act in a school setting, and that they needed to be explicitly taught that, and we needed to make sure that our staff and students were all on the same page.

Dale Atkinson: Yeah, nice. And Renmark Primary School, Sally. What's that like as an environment?

Sally Schwartzkopff: I suppose a little bit similar to Salisbury in some ways. We’re a category 2 school as well. Obviously located Rurally in Renmark, so about two-and-a-half hours away from Adelaide, we've got approximately 220 students. And amongst those students we actually represent a really diverse community. We have a really rich mixture of cultural backgrounds. Over the past couple of years, we've had a significant increase in enrolments of about 20% increase in our enrolment numbers.

Lots of our families do come from low socioeconomic circumstances, but we've also got a growing number of families whose circumstances are very different to that and also a lot of non-English speaking backgrounds, families as well. 25% of our students are Aboriginal. Another 25% of our students are diagnosed with an additional need or a disability. So our actual context is really quite diverse and rich in that way.

Dale Atkinson: So you've got incredible degree of diversity out there, Sally. So in terms of Positive Behaviour for Learning (PBL), how would you describe it? What is it and what stood out for you around that?

Sally Schwartzkopff: I think what stood out for us initially was that it's a framework. It's not a program. It's not a program that you pick up and you can run with. It's actually a framework that really supports schools to model and reinforce positive behaviour, in the same way that we teach academic skills to our children. It's really about creating those clear expectations that are really consistent across the schools, so that our students can really learn and understand what success looks like and what they need to do to get there and how we're going to help them with that.

And I think for us, it was really about the emphasis that's placed on explicitly teaching behaviour.  Similar to what Sylvia just said about students that don't know how to behave in a school setting or know what's expected in a school setting. It's that emphasis on teaching explicit behaviour. But then alongside of that, it's also about the flexibility that we have within that framework to shape it and fit with our own values and our own community, which for us is really diverse.

Dale Atkinson: So, Sylvia, how's this worked in your site? What have you been doing to implement the change?

Sylvia Groves: Well, we've looked closely at the data, and we've looked at what we felt we needed because we're already dabbling in it. We thought we were doing PBL for quite some time. What we had to do was revisit what was happening and look at what did our staff need and how did we reframe that in our site.

And the framework that PBL provides is that it was focusing on the positive and hunting for the good, and we had to change that mindset that our kids weren't teachable, that we really needed to find a way to improve relationships and behaviour and learning outcomes for them. And it was changing the school culture, which for staff and students that we needed to have that really big shift.

And it reframed expectations to create that positive culture across our whole site and has been an absolute game changer for our site, particularly in a complex school. And we have many of the complexities that Sally was talking about as well. But the thing about PBL is it's respectful, it's caring, but it also it creates high expectations, which we didn't want to let go of for our students.

And once again, too, like Sally said, it's about explicitly teaching both staff and students what is expected and what we expect to see in a classroom, and those staff and students didn't really know what that looked like. So that was really important for us.

Dale Atkinson: How do you change the mindset? What's the frame of reference for that kind of work?

Sylvia Groves: Well, we looked at what were some key issues that we were having at our site and how did we then address those issues. So we slightly picked up on 1 or 2 issues, and we then worked on those issues and found a way to reframe them, to put the positive slant on them. And then what sort of behaviours did we want that to look like.

And we then provided resources and ‘Salisbury-ised’ those resources for our staff to then teach the students and the staff what that should look like in the classroom.

Dale Atkinson: Now you’ve used the phrase ‘Salisbury-ised’, which I like. Sally, do you ‘Renmark-ise’ the PBL? Is that also something you do?

Sally Schwartzkopff: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, we ‘Renmark-ised’ it. I think for us, you know, the way that we kind of got the people on board and really showed the sense of urgency around we needed to change something, for us, it was about vulnerability. It was about being really vulnerable as a leadership team with our whole staff.

So I talk about this number of 247. And when I've shared the PBL story that number always comes up because 247 was the number of times leadership were called in my first 6 weeks as principal at Renmark Primary School, and that was called to support teachers with the behaviour incidents.

Now, if you think about what 247 means across 6 weeks, we were run off our feet, like, we did not have time to do any other work other than support behaviour issues across our school. And I think for us, teachers often said, you know, I need support with managing this behaviour, but I didn't actually think about what that looked like across the whole school.

So we shared that number of 247 with every teacher and every SSO and said, we need to change something because we can't keep going at this rate. Because at the end of the term, this number, you know, ended up being 400 and something. So for us it was about being really vulnerable with our staff, really sharing with them where we were at as a leadership team and the challenges that we were facing. Because those challenges they're facing in the classroom, too, in individuals and we knew that we needed to get some collective responsibility around that number.

So for us, it was about being really, really vulnerable with them, but then being able to say we're going to be able to fix this, we're going to work together. We're going to kind of come on board with this framework. We're going to learn about this framework. We're going to, you know, carry out all the PBL professional learning.

We're going to do it together. We're going to involve them in every step of the way, which we did. And we developed this sense of shared understanding of the purpose of why we needed PBL and what difference it was going to make. And then along the way, as we started to see small changes, we celebrated them with our whole staff, and we celebrated those small wins and we slowly got traction.

Dale Atkinson: Do you need to demonstrate outcomes to get some buy-in from your staff. Or has it been kind of organic? I think we've had to share the wins with them, like intentionally share the wins with them so that they could see the impact of what they were doing collectively was making a difference. But then I think on the flip side of that, teachers also started to go, “Oh my goodness”.

Like while I'm focusing on the positive here, while I'm explicitly teaching the behaviour, and I've set up these really clear expectations in my course, I've got more time to teach. I've got more time to actually spend on the really important academic work and build relationships and all those things that are so important in our classrooms. I think they kind of started to feel that shift as well.

Dale Atkinson: Now Sylvia you've been nodding away at that a little bit. What's the impact on staff wellbeing and the sense of teaching efficacy among your crew been like?

Sylvia Groves: It's been amazing, really. We were very fortunate when we first asked the staff whether we should reinvest in PBL as a framework, and we had 99% of staff who wanted to be on board, so they saw a real need for it.

So they felt, the focus was whole school immediately. And so that made it a lot easier for us. They felt very supported in their wellbeing because we're talking about what's happening in their classrooms every day. And just like Sally, we wanted to work smarter, not harder. So the resources that we create, that they use on a daily basis, we're not adding to their workload.

We're making sure that the PBL team is creating those that they're readily available and very usable, and they're very appreciative of that because I can see it's just not more work. And that's always a concern for teachers. We made sure it was consistent across the site and that each teacher was supporting each other, because that's really important as well.

Probably the biggest game changer is that the consistency across the site. Every single person has to be on board and the teachers have to be backed up so relationships for them improved in the classroom. They had more time to then focus on what's really important. And that was really clear quite early, particularly with the mini lessons we do and the clarity around behavioural expectations was really important too, because teachers don't want to feel isolated in their classrooms or through doing behaviour management.

They want to feel supported in that. So as priorities change, we also listen to staff and what are the current priorities that we need to address and will then move forward with PBL framework to make sure they're being addressed. So they're feeling heard and that's important to their wellbeing as well.

Dale Atkinson: Now you both spoke about really diverse communities, diverse cohorts of students. Sally, how have you gone about getting buy-in and support from parents and caregivers in the wider community? Has that been necessary, or has it just been more about how they've kind of responded to the to the work?

Sally Schwartzkopff: We definitely got the buy-in from our parents and community through our social media app in the very, very early days. So when we very first started to shape our new school values and talk about PBL and the why behind why, you know, why we needed to reshape these values for our school and really connect into our community.

We got a lot of buy-in around that. And the way we did that around, you know, creating a bit of atmosphere around, you know, the excitement of the unveiling of the values and all that, all that sort of stuff. I think the other buying we got was obviously through our governing council to really involve them as part of the process, as well.

So, you know, at every governing council meeting, making sure that PBL was on the table and making sure that they sort of understood where we were at with what we were doing, what impact it was having, making sure we shared the raw stories with that governing council was really important. And then I think the last part is we have a token system at Renmark Primary, and we have a token collector – a collector house – and the collector house actually sits right outside my office door in our office space.

And I think that that for us has become a really big talking point in our school. Visitors coming to our school see it there and kind of go, well, what is this? Talk to me about what this is. And if children are they're popping their tokens in, they will happily tell parents or visitors, I got this, you know, this is an orange token and it's because I was kind and this is what I did to, you know, get this token.

So I think that for us, it's everywhere in our school. We've got our values displayed. You cannot stand in our school and not see our values on a wall somewhere. So I think that's the other part as well. So our parents know, and I feel that as I walk in and I can see all these are the four things that, you know, make up, primary school, who they are.

Dale Atkinson: Has that visibility been important for you as well, Sylvia?

Sylvia Groves: Definitely, and definitely the celebration of when we are achieving through the PBL. We also completely revisited our values and shared that with our parents. And that was a significant change as well that both staff, students and the community were involved in that. The mini lessons I shared at Governing council and the parents get really excited.

And one example was use of ICT and, you know, the challenges that our parents are facing often with their children that we can help mirror and support them as well. So we'll also try and pick up on their needs and use PBL as a means to support them as well. So we also use our social media as well.

So I think for the first time, all of our students can articulate very clearly what our values are and the celebrations that occur. For example, if we get to 150,000 PBL points in the term, they get a casual day on the last day of term. So, you know, they easily cleared that. You know, there's so many things we'll do, like we might have if everyone's been in uniform for so long, we might have a Zooper Dooper day, and all the kids will get a Zooper Dooper.

Those little celebrations make a big difference because we're acknowledging that there is a real culture shift, and the kids love it and really thrive on it as well. So in the parents do as well. So it's really important that our kids want to come to school and they, you know, primary school can be quite different from high school.

And they want to feel that they belong, that they feel connected. And the PBL has really helped enormously. But the celebrations make a big difference.

Dale Atkinson: Celebrations always make a big difference!

Sylvia Groves: With staff too!

Dale Atkinson: Yeah, absolutely. Sally, I'll start with you first. Has there been a memorable moment or specific success that you can remember that's really kind of reinforced why this has worked in your site?

Sally Schwartzkopff: The standout moment for us was kind of getting to our first end of term reward. I think that that has got to be the standout moment. It was ice cream day. You know, we'd field the token collector, and we'd got there and as a whole school, you know, was sitting under the shelter and we’ve all got our ice cream sundaes and we've got every topping under the sun.

And that that sense of excitement and pride and community was so incredible that day that we'd made it, that we were genuinely proud of something that we had achieved together. And it was about collective effort and every teacher, and every student was involved. I think that that for us has to be a standout moment. And then I think about, you know, I think we've had 8 more end of term awards since then, and every one of them is just as special.

And I think we haven't lost any of the excitement or pride or joy around achieving those things. I think that that for us is a real stand out moment.

Dale Atkinson: Yeah, it's really it sounds like a lovely, lovely moment. Sylvia, is there anything for you?

Sylvia Groves: We actually had an issue with our toilets, which lots of schools have, and we're really concerned about how we could address that because nothing we were doing was working.

And, you know, we're going around the classrooms. And in the end, I decided to say to the students that I would give $6000 of my principal's fund to the students if the damage stopped, and every day there was no damage, they would get $100. And I thought that we weren't going to achieve that, but I might save money on toilet damage.

Well, we'd certainly achieved it. And it was beyond belief. The difference. And I've heard so many schools who've tackled this problem and not been successful. And not only have I saved more than $6000 on the toilets, at the end of that time, the students could choose what they would do with that money, and they used it for activities in the last week of school.

And it was just an amazing sense of pride and them owning the issue. Because they knew it was only a small group of students doing that damage, but they suddenly became the owners of it. It's about explicitly teaching the students that, you know, there's positive outcomes and the celebration is a big part of that. And yeah, that was definitely it was a bit of a different tact to take, but definitely worked. So yeah.

Dale Atkinson: What a way to change that frame of reference around things like that. It's incredible. So obviously you've you're both into the journey a little way now. Sylvia, you first – what advice would you give to schools contemplating coming onto it or who have just started?

Sylvia Groves: I think tap into schools that are already involved and see and feel what is happening because it's exciting.

Like, I have a very firm belief that every school should be doing this regardless of the context, because every student deserves to come into a learning environment that is positive and productive. And that's what it's all about. When I do our walkthroughs, I'll ask the kids for other ideas on how can we learn better? What sort of things can I do as a principal to make your learning environment better?

I would certainly probably my biggest challenge was going too fast because I love things to happen quickly. So being guided by the PBL team and revisiting, reviewing, refreshing, listening to your staff, listening to the students, and using the framework that's already there because it already exists. You know, we really need more schools to tap into it. And I'm, you know, hopeful that when I leave, this will continue for many years to come.

Dale Atkinson: What about you, Sally? What's your advice for newbies?

Sally Schwartzkopff: My advice to newbies is to definitely start small and just build gradually. And don't try to implement everything at once. It's an amazing framework. And you do – I hear what Sylvia’s saying about – you really want to just kind of jump in and do it all and get it all into place and, and run with it, but you can't.

Like, you've really got to start small. Build gradually. Work out, you know, what are the things you need to address first, that you're going to get your most shift or buy-in. And then the other part is anchor everything in your values, like your school values are the heart of PBL, and you have to make sure you've got them right for your school that they match your context. They are understood by your students; they're understood by your staff and your families. They are your grounding, and they are your foundation. So make sure you've got those really strong.

And then I think the other last part is for schools as they get involved, PBL is about data. It is about looking at your behaviour data and working out, you know, where the issues are in your school and what you can do to shift around you know, teaching specific behaviour around those areas.

But you've got to have heart. PBL is about the heart of the school, and it's about the heart that we put into it. And I think while the data kind of guides the journey, it's a heart as a school that we put behind it that's made the biggest buy-in, and that's around making sure that, you know, we're developing a culture where every student and staff member feels valued and understood and that, you know, families are part of the journey and making sure that we are kind of sharing the stories and the experiences that go behind the data, because that is the part of PBL that makes it so valuable.

And, you know, alongside the support of the department and our mentor in particular, we have completely reimagined our school because of PBL. And I'm so grateful for that.

Dale Atkinson: Yeah. That's great. That's such a good message, Sally. So where to next for both of you? Sylvia?

Sylvia Groves: Well, we will make sure that we continue with the practices we're doing. We have a really strong PBL team. We have to make sure that when staff leave or new staff come on board, that they're inducted, and that the consistency remains. We will continue to use the data to guide us. And there's no end to this journey. It is a cultural feel and shift that we want to keep the momentum going and for our staff, as much as for our students.

So it's part of what we do. I find it hard sometimes even thinking, “was there another way?”. And when people come to our school, they feel it's really positive. We get amazing results and it's all part of that cultural shift that we got through PBL and it's exciting. It's an exciting place to be. People love being at the school.

We have high retention rates of both staff and students, and it's because of the PBL. So it's there to stay for us and it's just what we do at Salisbury High School.

Sally Schwartzkopff: We are going to sort of shift to think about what does our PBL team look like? And there's a bit of work we're doing currently around that. What's that going to like in 2025? We want to shift and reimagine that a little bit, to make sure that we can continue to embed and strengthen our PBL across the school to make sure it stays, you know, a very firm part of who we are.

Continue to look at how we’re tracking our behaviour data and what we're doing with that, that data and try and make those processes even easier visually as well, for our staff to kind of be part of that journey. That's a real focus at the moment. And then the last part about that is that we really want to strengthen our student voice. Our teachers love being here, our students love being here, our enrolment numbers are growing.

We're not a PBL school, we are Renmark Primary School, and this is who we are.

Dale Atkinson: This is who we are. Well that’s such a good moment to leave on. So for people who want to know more about positive behaviour for learning, there'll be notes in the show notes and some links away for information. There’s also a team within the Department for Education who are chomping at the bit to help you out and talk to you about how to implement this in your site. So please check it out.

Sylvia. And so I thank you very much for your time.

Sylvia Groves: Thank you.

Sally Schwartzkopff: Pleasure.